chosen said: "Maybe your posts belong in "the cops a rude" thread?"
Just because I'm challenging your nonsense doesn't make me the bad guy, Sir. If you don't like being challenged on a factual basis (a challenge which you have NOT met by the way), I suggest you don't post.
chosen said: "You're asking me to provide sources for 5 words you like to put in quotations. ( "guns indeed do not protect..." ) First of all this is an opinion. An opinion based in fact, but still none the less an opinon."
Nice try at back peddling, but I submit you're going to be the only one buying it becuase I sure ain't. You made a direct statement that guns don't protect people. You are stating that as fact. I called you on it and you simply cannot meet the challenge. Now you're upset at me and trying to go back on what you said to begin with. Nuh-uh, Chief, I'm not letting you off the hook that easily.
chosen said: "If you want a source read the my first post in this tread. One dead officer who used a gun for protection. A locked up citizen who used a gun for protection. Both these people have there lives destroyed based on a belief that a gun could protect. You are an fool to state otherwise."
One incidence of something isn't proof of anything. For example, you might make one intelligent post at some point but that doesn't mean you're intelligent. In reality, I could find dozens of ridiculous posts you've made, and were I building an argument against your intelligence, I would use the body of your work against you. Such is the sort of thing necessary when investigating a subject.
In this case, we're investigating an aspect of gun control--specifically whether or not guns are effective methods of protection. In order to discover the answer, we cannot look at just one case (your case, the subject of this thread, is a poor example overall anyway), but rather we must look for numerous examples of guns used for protection and investigate the outcome of those events. Your hypothesis, based on your statement "guns indeed do not protect," is at least one of, or a combination of, the following:
* Guns cannot successfully be used for self-defense.
* Guns are not successfully used for self-defense.
* If/when guns are used in self-defense, the incident ends in tragedy.
There are other possibilities, but all are iterations of the above. So let's investigate the concept that firearms cannot/are not successfully used for self-defense and/or self-defense uses of firearms result in tragedy.
First of all, even though it's still a relatively new field of study, several studies have been made regarding defensive gun use. Since you strike me as the type to look to the government for answers, let's start with government research. In 1994, the U.S. Department of Justice sponsored a National Institute of Justice survey entitled Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms. This DoJ/NIS research concluded that guns are used 1.5 million times each year for defense (it should be noted that "defensive use" includes instances where shooting wasn't necessary, i.e. brandishing the weapon and scaring the bad guy off).
Subsequently Gary Kleck, a Florida State criminologist, performed similar research independently and concluded that guns are used successfully for defense approximately 2 million times each year. Over the decades, other surveys have been conducted and the results are similar, but for the sake of argument are as follows:
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Field Institute, 1976 (CA only) -- 3,052,717 successful defensive gun uses
Bordura, 1977 (IL only) -- 1,414,544 successful defensive gun uses
DMI #1, 1978 (nationwide, including against animals) -- 2,141,512 successful defensive gun uses
DMI #2, 1978 (nationwide, against people only) -- 1,098,409 successful defensive gun uses
Peter Hart Research Assoc., 1981 (nationwide) -- 1,797,461 successful defensive gun uses
State of Ohio, 1982 (OH only) -- 771,043 successful defensive gun uses
Mauser, 1990 (nationwide) -- 1,487,342 successful defensive gun uses
Gallup, 1991 (nationwide) -- 777,153 successful defensive gun uses
Gallup, 1993 (nationwide) -- 1,621,377 successful defensive gun uses
L.A. Times, 1994 (nationwide) -- 3,609,382 successful defensive gun uses
Tarrance, 1994 (nationwide) -- 764,036 successful defensive gun uses
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Differences between the numbers are the result of different polling options, questions, forumlas used for extrapolation, etc. Ignoring the state studies and adding all the national studies up, including the DoJ/NIS and Kleck research, we find the average number of successful defensive gun uses accross America is approximately 1,679,667 times. And according to the 2006 U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation's national Uniform Crime Report, firearms were used to commit a non-justifiable homicide exactly 10,177 times.
That means that firearms are used to murder people 0.61% of the time they're used to save someone--or in other words, for every one time someone is murdered with a gun, a gun is used 164 times to successfully defend someone.
Furthermore, since statistics can be boring for the simple mind, I submit the following recent events for consideration:
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http://www.wkyt.com/news/headlines/16443521.html
http://www.macon.com/149/story/291148.html
http://www.timescall.com/news_story.asp?ID=7045
http://www.argusleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080305/UPDATES/80305022/-1/nation
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/5492
http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=7944123
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newyork/ny-bc-ny--burglarythwarted0228feb28,0,2182444.story
http://www.kmph.com/Global/story.asp?S=7944148&nav=menu612_2_6
http://www.southcoasttoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080227/NEWS/802270335
http://www.nbc11.com/newsarchive/15418216/detail.html
http://www.nbc5i.com/news/15423350/detail.html
http://www.eyeoutforyou.com/news/local/15989262.html
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And so forth...I can provide literally dozens more recent, real life incidents of successful defensive gun uses if anyone feels it necessary. Just say the word and I'll post as many as anyone likes.
The REAL facts speak for themselves. Call me a "rude cop" or whatever you like, but I prefer to let the truth do my talking instead of my a$$. You should try it sometime, chosen.
Beyond any of the above, I take personal offense to anyone who tells me guns are worthless for defense. As a civilian, a serviceman and an officer of the law, a firearm has prevented my possible death and/or serious injury. On one particular occasion as a civilian, I prevented the death/injury of my wife as well. So don't you dare tell me guns have no defensive use...I owe my life to them! And shame on you chosen for asserting otherwise.
I rest my case, and I remain ever a Free Man, armed and capable of defending myself, my family, my community and my country. I sleep well tonight indeed Sir, as a Citizen--whereas unarmed men are subjects.
