Muscatine

JC,

The other part that libs like to conveniently ignore from the Const. is the phrase, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble,..."

So what law has Congress ever passed violating this, that leads liberals to believe there cannot be prayer in school, or crosses placed for memorials on public property, etc., or even the ten commandments placed in courthouses, etc., etc.? I don't get how liberals make that connection. Mall has trouble with the sep of ch & st not being lieterally written in the Const., but the above phrase limits this section's applicability to Congress...not schools or local gov'ts.

Mal said:  "So why "separation of church and state"?  What's your trouble with those words not being in the constitution?"

I don't have any "trouble" with those words not being in the constitution!   I'm just fine with the wording the founding fathers used in the constitution, and the exclusion of those words.  Evidently you are not.

"You can use any dictionary to find the meanings of all those words."  Normally theret is a choice of meanings in the dictionary listings.  The choice you select is usually dependent on the context in which the word is used.  I can tell you what I believe the meaning of those words is, even if you are reluctant to tell me your interpretation:

"Support" would mean the same as facilitate, promote, or sponsor in any way.  But I believe the government does support religion, if you use those definitions.  You would have to say the tax exempt status granted religions and churches is definitely "support", wouldn't you?  So I don't the Constituion prohibits all "support".  If it does, we don't follow the Constitution, do we?

"Religion" in the current context of our discussion, means to me: Any particular denomination (such as Methodist, Roman Catholic, Hasitic Judahism, Sunni Muslim, etc.).  It does not mean Christianity or any general set of Western Culture Morality.  So the Constitution does not prohibit the promotion of Christian principles and morality.  In fact they were used in the construction of the basis for legal system.

"Involved in government"?  I really don't know what you mean, or would I adopt that principle nor would I have a meaning for it.  There is no prohibition against religions getting involved in government.  Churches cannot promote particular political parties without risking the loss of their tax exempt status, but they certainly are not prohibited from doing it as a matter of law.

Now do you understand why I was interested in what you specifically meant by the words you used?

By the way:

What the First Amendment was really saying has been all but forgotten. Judge Thomas Cooley, a leading constitutional scholar of the l9th century, put it this way in his Principles of Constitutional Law:

      "By establishment of religion is meant the setting up or recognizing of a state church, or at least the conferring upon one church of special favors and advantages which are denied to others. It was never intended by the Constitution that the government should be prohibited from recognizing religion, or that religious worship should never be provided for in cases where a proper recognition of Divine Providence in the workings of government might seem to require it, and where it might be done without drawing invidious distinctions between different religious beliefs, organizations or sects. The Christian religion was always recognized in the administration of the common law; and so far as that law continues to be the law of the land, the fundamental principles of that religion must continue to be recognized in the same cases and the same extent as formerly."